more on referencing described resource [Re: RSS Referencing

Discussion:

Aleksander Slominski

2005-07-29 23:03:47 UTC

thinking even more about it - when generating feed why not to generate
as much metadata in as many standards as possible? who knows what may
turn out to be useful ...

<atom:link rel="related" href="http://nytimes/2005/foo" title="Foo">
<atom:link rel="related" href="http://bbc/2005/bar" title="Bar">
<atom:link rel="via" href="http://other-blogger" title="other" />
<atom:link rel="related" href="http://myspace/SomeTopic"/>
<s:link rel="s:topic" xmlns:s="my-space" href="/SomeTopic"/>

<dc:subject>SomeTopic</dc:subject>
<atom:category term="SomeTopic" />
<atom:category scheme="http://myspace/"
term="SomeTopic">
<a href="http://myspace/SomeTopic">SomeTopic</a>
</category>

<atom:link rel="related" href="http://technorati.com/tag/SomeTopic"/>

i wonder if there are more metadata schemas ...

thanks,

alek
--
The best way to predict the future is to invent it - Alan Kay

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Aleksander Slominski

2005-07-28 18:48:07 UTC

Permalink

But who cares, right? After all, if we have the link to the content
document on Blogger, then we have all the information we need. The
author can simply write about the NY Times as part of the post
content, and embed a link into what will eventually become the
description. Problem solved.

it seems you do nto care about the case when there can be multiple links
to content?

what about referencing other places "via" link?

i think that it is more natural to put those links in body content
(<description> in RSS) than to force in UI external elements

then let software extract links and put them into generated atom feed, ex:

<body><div xmlns="xhtml">I was ready <a href="nytimes">Foo</a> and <a
href="bbc">Bar</a> and baz (<a rel="via"
href="other-blogger">other</a>)</div></body>

generates links:

<atom:link href="nytimes" title="Foo">
<atom:link href="bbc" title="Bar">
<atom:link rel="via" href="other-blogger" title="other" />

if you have more complicated links relations i think it is beneficial to
define superset of atom:link and allow more powerful relations in
decentralized way - i did it internally in my engine by using QNames,
for example to point to internal topic (which is like "tag" or Wiki
topic): <a href="/SomeTopic" rel="s:topic">...</a> that is later
translated to <s:link rel="s:topic" xmlns:s="my-space"
href="SomeTopic"/> where s:link is superset of atom:link with redefined
rel/rev and other attributes possible.

and for interoperability i can still of course generate <atom:link> in
my atom feed (alas! i loose my custom relations as atom 1.0 has
centralized rel content and does not allow namespace so for my own
benefit i still include my own link el):

<atom:link href="nytimes" title="Foo">
<atom:link href="bbc" title="Bar">
<atom:link rel="via" href="other-blogger" title="other" />
<atom:link href="http://myspace/SomeTopic"/>
<s:link rel="s:topic" xmlns:s="my-space" href="SomeTopic"/>

best,

alek
--
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Aleksander Slominski

2005-07-28 18:52:10 UTC

Permalink

Post by Aleksander Slominski
<atom:link href="nytimes" title="Foo">
<atom:link href="bbc" title="Bar">
<atom:link rel="via" href="other-blogger" title="other" />
<atom:link href="http://myspace/SomeTopic"/>
<s:link rel="s:topic" xmlns:s="my-space" href="SomeTopic"/>

it seems default for rel is "alternate" so that should be chnaged to

<atom:link rel="related" href="nytimes" title="Foo">
<atom:link rel="related" href="bbc" title="Bar">
<atom:link rel="via" href="other-blogger" title="other" />
<atom:link href="http://myspace/SomeTopic"/>
<s:link rel="s:topic" xmlns:s="my-space" href="SomeTopic"/>

best,

alek
--
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Steve Cayzer

2005-08-01 10:27:35 UTC

Permalink

So, reading this thread carefully, one possible resolution is that the
atom "rel" attribute is extended.

<link rel="parent" href="http://myblog/monthly_summary">
<link rel="replyto" href="http://yourblog/contentious_article">
<link rel="reference" href="http://communityblog/about_this_topic">

These 3 to be added to the exisiting: related, alternate, vias,
enclosure and self.

.. and Aleksander appears to agree. Is there any mechanism to tell the
aggregator about the superset relationship (RDF would say superclass)
between s:link and atom:link ?

Post by Aleksander Slominski
and for interoperability i can still of course generate <atom:link> in
my atom feed (alas! i loose my custom relations as atom 1.0 has
centralized rel content and does not allow namespace

So what's the best, to get Atom buy in (which may not happen), or to
roll your own namespace (which will doubtless get ignored by the
aggregators)?
I've more or less taken the latter route but using RDF properties from
known vocabularies (eg Annotea 'annotates'
http://www.w3.org/2000/10/annotation-ns).

Steve

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Sam Ruby

2005-08-01 12:36:28 UTC

Permalink

Post by Aleksander Slominski
if you have more complicated links relations i think it is beneficial to
define superset of atom:link and allow more powerful relations in
decentralized way - i did it internally in my engine by using QNames,
for example to point to internal topic (which is like "tag" or Wiki
topic): <a href="/SomeTopic" rel="s:topic">...</a> that is later
translated to <s:link rel="s:topic" xmlns:s="my-space"
href="SomeTopic"/> where s:link is superset of atom:link with redefined
rel/rev and other attributes possible.
and for interoperability i can still of course generate <atom:link> in
my atom feed (alas! i loose my custom relations as atom 1.0 has
centralized rel content and does not allow namespace so for my own
<atom:link href="nytimes" title="Foo">
<atom:link href="bbc" title="Bar">
<atom:link rel="via" href="other-blogger" title="other" />
<atom:link href="http://myspace/SomeTopic"/>
<s:link rel="s:topic" xmlns:s="my-space" href="SomeTopic"/>

Why is this superset necessary? Atom supports decentralized definitions
of custom relations.

http://www.atomenabled.org/developers/syndication/#extensibility
http://www.atomenabled.org/developers/syndication/atom-format-spec.php#rfc.section.4.2.7.2

Here are a few examples of valid feeds:

http://feedvalidator.org/testcases/atom/4.1.1/link-rel-full.xml
http://feedvalidator.org/testcases/atom/4.2.7.2/absolute_rel.xml
http://feedvalidator.org/testcases/atom/6.4/link-extensions.xml

Note in the third example, there even are new attributes defined (in
their own namespace), and even elements placed inside the rel.

- Sam Ruby

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Clinton Gallagher

2005-12-21 01:21:25 UTC

Permalink

The RSS 2.0 specification is ambiguous. The specification [1] clearly states
how to represent the values but fails to indicate how to delineate a
collection of values. Commas? Spaces? Other?

The skipDays verbiage also mentions Sunday as the last day of the week. Does
the order of days in the collection matter to those parsing the channel and
again what is the preferred delineator if any?

Finally, as a point of discussion which ahs probably been argued in the past
the specification fails to indicate how the channel for a restaurant or deli
for example may or may not indicate skipped hours on such and such a day(s)
while skipping other hours on this day and that day instead while skipping
days entirely on this day and that day. Clear as mud ;-)

I'll be posting this inquiry to several lists hoping to attract the
attention and comments of those who may have insight regarding how
aggregators and readers are responding to these issues. Perhaps a general
consensus will emerge as I haven't found any FAQs or "Best Practice"
documents yet...

<%= Clinton Gallagher

[1] http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/tech/skipHoursDays#skiphours

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Phil Ringnalda

2005-12-21 04:13:03 UTC

Permalink

Post by Clinton Gallagher
The RSS 2.0 specification is ambiguous. The specification [1] clearly states
how to represent the values but fails to indicate how to delineate a
collection of values. Commas? Spaces? Other?

Other, repeated elements.
<skipHours><hour>8</hour><hour>9</hour></skipHours>

Post by Clinton Gallagher
Finally, as a point of discussion which ahs probably been argued in the past
the specification fails to indicate how the channel for a restaurant or deli
for example may or may not indicate skipped hours on such and such a day(s)
while skipping other hours on this day and that day instead while skipping
days entirely on this day and that day. Clear as mud ;-)

Yep, if you want that granularity, you'll want to design something new,
all the while remembering how very, very few aggregators support
skipHours/skipDays, and how your new thing will get even less support.
And it's even less granular than you may be thinking since "days" that
are skipped probably have to be assumed to be days in UTC, so depending
on how far away from Europe you are, the overlap between your day and
the skipped day may be pretty poor.

I'll leave it up to someone else to do the standard "mod_syndication is
so much better specified" (without mentioning that it is probably even
less widely supported).

Phil Ringnalda

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Clinton Gallagher

2005-12-21 19:25:36 UTC

Permalink

Message: 1
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 19:21:25 -0600
Subject: Formatting skipDays and skipHours...
The RSS 2.0 specification is ambiguous. The specification [1]
clearly states how to represent the values but fails to
indicate how to delineate a collection of values. Commas?
Spaces? Other?

<%= Clinton Gallagher
[1] http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/tech/skipHoursDays#skiphours
Message: 2
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 20:13:03 -0800
Subject: Re: Formatting skipDays and skipHours...

<skipHours><hour>8</hour><hour>9</hour></skipHours>
I'll leave it up to someone else to do the standard
"mod_syndication is so much better specified" (without
mentioning that it is probably even less widely supported).
Phil Ringnalda

Thank you, I went to the web and found more comments and
implementation insights. Your comments regarding mod_syndication
is making too much sense.

Well Phil, do you know of any collections of "best practice"
documents for developers to gain insight rather than picking
a bit and a byte at a time?

<%= Clinton Gallagher

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